 Denomination Blues attribution error  |
BurtJB 
Someone New
Registration Date: 02-26-2005
Posts: 3
Location: Durango, CO
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| Denomination Blues attribution error |
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So I was taking a close look at my LP copy of Ping Pong (which by the way I will be selling on E-Bay in the next few days - UserID "BurtJB") and noticed for the first time that "Denomination Blues" is supposedly a Ry Cooder song. A little research though proves this to actually be a Washington Phillips song (early Gospel singer), which Ry Cooder did cover. It's wierd though, because the copyright on the 77's album is 1972 (when Ry recorded it). From a comparison of clips though, it is clearly the same as the Washington Phillips song.
The only thing I can think is maybe the lyrics are public domain, but Ry Cooder's arrangement is copyrighted?
Anyway...I also noticed the 77's left out a verse about the Baptists.
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Jason
www.singlecollector.com - Discographies
www.creekdipping.com - Mark Olson & Victoria Williams
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02-26-2005 17:19 |
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dennis
Happy Roy
Registration Date: 10-03-2004
Posts: 5,985
Favorite 77s album: "88"
Location: Way out on the outskirts of town.
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another example of The Man ripping off the poor blues singer.
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02-26-2005 20:44 |
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rob 3.0
Radioactive Crow
Registration Date: 05-28-2004
Posts: 12,194
Favorite 77s album: Drowning With Land in Sight
Location: Where the River Bends
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In live shows Mike attributes the song to Washington Phillips. I never noticed that about the PPOTA notes.
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And so I say, I don't know why, I don't know why
The years go down, the years turn 'round
And now it's comin' down it's comin' down again
Was I ever on the inside?
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02-27-2005 06:19 |
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77 bc
Radioactive Hatchling
Registration Date: 11-17-2004
Posts: 9,890
Favorite 77s album: The one's Mike plays guitar on
Location: Springtown
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I would assume that your initial assessment is more than likely correct. When PPOTA was released, back in '82, info was not nearly as readily available as it is now, since Al Gore invented the internet.
When Mike & Mark played the song in Springfield, the intro to the song was about Washington Phillips, and never once do I remember Ry Cooder mentioned.
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"tell me, what's worth more
what you'll lie for or
what you'll die for
i follow my heart
and it lies and it lies
and i don't understand it"
~ Roe/Harmon ~ "Woody"
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02-27-2005 06:28 |
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Doctor Love
Doctor Love
Registration Date: 08-24-2004
Posts: 1,998
Location: on the moon Alice
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| Denomination Confusion Blues |
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I believe that the song was in the public domain for quite awhile, having amassed numerous verses and versions. Possibly Ry Cooder re-arranged and then subsequently bought the rights to it circa 1972 and the song has borne his name as the composer ever since. This is not unlike what happened to Blind Willie Johnson's "Nobody's Fault But Mine", although to be fair, Page and Plant's version really is a new composition based only marginally on the original. I've never heard Cooder's "Denomination" but this might also be the case?....
I always try and credit Mr. Phillips with the song because it was his frustration with the hypocrisy of the early 20th century American Christian denominations that gave the song birth and life in the first place.
Amazingly, I/we still continue to perform this piece 23 years after recording it. It has remained powerful, and I've watched hardened sinners respond to its simple message time and time again.
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02-27-2005 13:27 |
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Doctor Love
Doctor Love
Registration Date: 08-24-2004
Posts: 1,998
Location: on the moon Alice
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Yeh, I have that 1920's recording too -- amazing, isn't it? It's part of a collection called "The Roots Of Rock", which also includes the Allman Brothers' "Statesboro Blues" sung by a black blues shouter who sounds both male & female at the same time and phrases exactly like Chrissie Hynde of The Pretenders! 
Quite revealing.
It's hard to know how to feel about the 'ripoff' aspect when you consider that so many of these folks have died so long ago without a trace and it's hard, if not impossible, for record comanies and/or publishers to contact their descendants. Occcasionally one of the grandkids with savvy and/or money for a music biz attorney will make good, but sadly it doesn't happen as often as it should... 
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02-27-2005 15:34 |
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Nailtatt
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 05-28-2004
Posts: 24,078
Favorite 77s album: Sticks and Stones
Location: The NFP
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All I can say, Is that song sums up the way I feel about church better than any song I can think of. Whoever wrote it originally hit the nail on the head and were probably kicked out of the church at the time.
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02-27-2005 15:38 |
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77 bc
Radioactive Hatchling
Registration Date: 11-17-2004
Posts: 9,890
Favorite 77s album: The one's Mike plays guitar on
Location: Springtown
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| RE: ripoff or just R.I.P.? |
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Not to mention the numerous offspring that were "unaccounted for" to begin with, or so the legends say...
__________________
"tell me, what's worth more
what you'll lie for or
what you'll die for
i follow my heart
and it lies and it lies
and i don't understand it"
~ Roe/Harmon ~ "Woody"
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02-27-2005 15:38 |
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BurtJB
Someone New
Registration Date: 02-26-2005
Posts: 3
Location: Durango, CO
Thread Starter 
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If you want to hear clips from other versions of "Denomination Blues", you can go to www.allmusic.com, do a song search for it, then click on the little speaker icons next to the listings. You can hear short clips from the Washington Phillips and the Ry Cooder versions.
So out of curiosity, was the omission of the Baptist part on purpose? The line says "The Primitive Baptists, they believe, that you can't go to heaven unless you wash your feet"...
The Ry Cooder version is interesting...it really retains the jingly sound of the Washington Phillips version.
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Jason
www.singlecollector.com - Discographies
www.creekdipping.com - Mark Olson & Victoria Williams
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02-27-2005 17:18 |
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BurtJB
Someone New
Registration Date: 02-26-2005
Posts: 3
Location: Durango, CO
Thread Starter
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hmm...didn't realize it was going to turn that into an actual link and accidentally got the comma in there. Try this:
www.allmusic.com
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Jason
www.singlecollector.com - Discographies
www.creekdipping.com - Mark Olson & Victoria Williams
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02-27-2005 17:21 |
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Doctor Love
Doctor Love
Registration Date: 08-24-2004
Posts: 1,998
Location: on the moon Alice
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We learned our version from Steve Scott. He never sang that verse as far as I can tell. Don't think it would have fit our rather sober rendering anyway.
>So out of curiosity, was the omission of the Baptist part on purpose?
>The line says "The Primitive Baptists, they believe, that you can't go
>to heaven unless you wash your feet"...
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02-27-2005 18:31 |
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dennis
Happy Roy
Registration Date: 10-03-2004
Posts: 5,985
Favorite 77s album: "88"
Location: Way out on the outskirts of town.
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| RE: ripoff or just R.I.P.? |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Doctor Love
Yeh, I have that 1920's recording too -- amazing, isn't it? It's part of a collection called "The Roots Of Rock", which also includes the Allman Brothers' "Statesboro Blues" sung by a black blues shouter who sounds both male & female at the same time and phrases exactly like Chrissie Hynde of The Pretenders!
Quite revealing.
It's hard to know how to feel about the 'ripoff' aspect when you consider that so many of these folks have died so long ago without a trace and it's hard, if not impossible, for record comanies and/or publishers to contact their descendants. Occcasionally one of the grandkids with savvy and/or money for a music biz attorney will make good, but sadly it doesn't happen as often as it should...
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Yeah I don't know how I feel about it either.
I know every once in awhile is some new written about how the tune to "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" was written by some African fella who never saw a red cent of the royalties, while hundreds of artists have used at least a part of, if not the entire song!
Chrissie Hynde is pretty much a man anyway, isn't she? 
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02-28-2005 16:09 |
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77 bc
Radioactive Hatchling
Registration Date: 11-17-2004
Posts: 9,890
Favorite 77s album: The one's Mike plays guitar on
Location: Springtown
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| RE: ripoff or just R.I.P.? |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
Chrissie Hynde is pretty much a man anyway, isn't she?
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Shame on you, Dennis. Chrissie rocks!
__________________
"tell me, what's worth more
what you'll lie for or
what you'll die for
i follow my heart
and it lies and it lies
and i don't understand it"
~ Roe/Harmon ~ "Woody"
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02-28-2005 16:43 |
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dennis
Happy Roy
Registration Date: 10-03-2004
Posts: 5,985
Favorite 77s album: "88"
Location: Way out on the outskirts of town.
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| RE: ripoff or just R.I.P.? |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by 77 bc
| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
Chrissie Hynde is pretty much a man anyway, isn't she?
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Shame on you, Dennis. Chrissie rocks! |
No! She's awesome! She does rock! She's also a man!
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02-28-2005 16:48 |
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chadzwo
Someone New
Registration Date: 06-08-2004
Posts: 4
Favorite 77s album: Self-Titled (the first one)
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| RE: Denomination Blues attribution error |
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For what it is worth, the misunderstanding of the Primitive Baptist belief is quite humorous, it's a good thing Roe & Co. didn't use the line, would have been egg on their face. 
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03-04-2005 22:39 |
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larryl
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 06-01-2004
Posts: 18,657
Location: hotlanta
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i just found the original washington phillips version of this......along with a disc with a alot of his stuff.......
i am pretty happy about it.
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06-28-2006 06:50 |
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