audiori 
Administrator
Registration Date: 05-27-2004
Posts: 1,383
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Yeah, its not a one-size-fits-all issue as Jason said earlier in the thread.
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10-16-2008 20:05 |
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larryl
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 06-01-2004
Posts: 18,657
Location: hotlanta
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the industry is changing...... tbone burnett talks about it a lot in a recent interview....
he says almost all back catalogs will be available for download in the not too distant future... legit download.... says there's just too much money to be made on it for it not to happen, and the technology is finally there to do it right.
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10-16-2008 20:10 |
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MefLiszto
Baby Elvis
Registration Date: 06-14-2004
Posts: 238
Location: Hamilton, OH
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Wow, didn't mean to start a fire with all the econ talk. I never realize how touchy a subject that can be to people. You all have some good points. Now put down the rocks and clubs and give each other a hug. Doesn't that feel better?
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10-16-2008 20:25 |
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Carl Salad
Baby Elvis
Registration Date: 08-27-2008
Posts: 80
Thread Starter 
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10-16-2008 23:25 |
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MarkyMark77
Drowning with Land in Sight
Registration Date: 03-24-2005
Posts: 465
Favorite 77s album: 99
Location: Illinois
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I just have to get in on this. Because I'm a glutton for arguing. 
Here's how I see it:
I don't have a problem with trading, buying or downloading unreleased stuff.
But, I do not like the idea some guy in a garage making money off of my favorite artists, when they don't see a dime.
The internet has kind of made buying bootlegs obsolete, though. Any number of concerts or studio outtakes can be downloaded. In my way of thinking, no one makes any money on this stuff. Which is okay with me, except with this caveat: You should buy it if/when it's officially released, and/or buy anything when it's officially released. Every time.
I'm also kind of with Jason (was it Jason?) in that if I band explicitly says, "don't trade", and you're a fan, you should respect that, because you respect them.
Admittedly, this is different from either paying for music or downloading for free only when the artist has given explicit consent. This is more a "spirit of the law" than a "letter of the law" view, I suppose, and a liberal one at that. What can I say? People do think differently.
I have to say this about Jason and Eric: you guys seem to see things as very black and white. It's how your mind works, which is cool. Having debated with you guys on some stuff, I appreciate the difference. I do not think like you guys, but that's alright. I tend to not get along with people like that, or at least clash a lot, but still respect their opinion. And, as always, I respect all you guys do for our Terry and Mike.
Either way, I don't think any of us want to do anything that would hurt our favorite bands. This conversation is why I loved what you guys did with the Route 66 tour, the donation aspect of it. Directly contributing in that way was fun, and even though it was a lot of money (to me), it was still worth it. You either fund it, or you don't, and you get a stake in what is being made. More stuff like this in the future would be great!
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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by MarkyMark77: 10-17-2008 07:34.
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10-17-2008 07:32 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 05-27-2004
Posts: 1,383
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Thanks for the kind words in there.
I do want to say though that I definitely do not see every issue as black and white.. some are, some aren't. Making money off of someone else's work when you don't have the legal right to do so does seem pretty black and white to me.
It depends more on how its read it seems like... In other discussions, I've spent mutiple posts arguing that there is no right answer to a certain topic and still get accused of seeing things as black and white.
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10-17-2008 07:40 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 05-27-2004
Posts: 1,383
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Ahh, yes.. good example. Thanks. Its an idea thats been around a long time.
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10-17-2008 07:45 |
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MarkyMark77
Drowning with Land in Sight
Registration Date: 03-24-2005
Posts: 465
Favorite 77s album: 99
Location: Illinois
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Also, I really dig e-music. I have no idea how their profit structure works, or how well it works for artists. But, it's easily my favorite download site because of pricing and the community that's there.
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10-17-2008 07:59 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 05-27-2004
Posts: 1,383
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That first line was added after I first hit submit, but just a few seconds later. I meant to put it in there and forgot.
My posts above are more about the spirit of the law than the law itself... thats what I meant by saying the wishes of the artist are more important to me than anything else. Something can be legal and still be wrong, or vis versa... but I generally do not see a reason to go against the wishes of the artist.
PS: This is Eric. Jason uses "audiori J" almost exclusively.
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10-17-2008 08:00 |
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MarkyMark77
Drowning with Land in Sight
Registration Date: 03-24-2005
Posts: 465
Favorite 77s album: 99
Location: Illinois
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| quote: |
| My posts above are more about the spirit of the law than the law itself... thats what I meant by saying the wishes of the artist are more important to me than anything else. Something can be legal and still be wrong, or vis versa... but I generally do not see a reason to go against the wishes of the artist. |
Yeah, I did notice that in there. And usually, fans of bands care enough to find out their policies on such things. That might seem a little complicated, but that's what I love about independent artists: there is that community there, where the fans are more than just a CD/download sale. Over The Rhine's policy, for example, is that you can trade audience recordings but not soundboards, because they do releases (the "Live from Nowhere" series) from select shows. That makes sense to me, and I honor it. (Also, they are on e-music. It seems like this would be a great way to at least sell soundboards for bands)
Also, I really dig the vinyl resurgence. To me, this will fix some of the illegal stuff. If the prices on vinyl would come down just a bit, for me this would be a great way to have something substantial.
I've been eyeing the double LP of "Sunshine Lies" by Matthew Sweet for while now. It's the kind of music that works great on vinyl, in all of its crackling and popping glory!
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10-17-2008 08:07 |
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Audiori J
unregistered
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As for seeing things black and white, I may to a degree.
I believe that the situation must be considerd though. For example, there would be a right and wrong way to do things for everyone in the exact same situation. But not everyone is in the exact same situation all of the time. Thats why I was saying for example for one artist giving away a lot of music for free might be smart, but for another artist with a different set of circumstances, it might not be a smart thing to do. Everything depends on a series of variables that have to be considered.
Frankly it might be more black and white or simplistic to say that for example bootlegs always help the bands. In some situations, certain bands might be helped by it and in other situations certain bands might be hurt by it.
I think when it comes to bands like the ones we are fans of, the situation is simbiotic, we want their music and want to see them keep making it... they need us to buy from them directly and encourage others to do the same for them to continue making music. Other artists may very well be in a very different situation in regards to their fans and if its a smart thing to to do to put their music up for free.
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10-17-2008 13:51 |
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Nailtatt
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 05-28-2004
Posts: 24,078
Favorite 77s album: Sticks and Stones
Location: The NFP
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So if you are going to buy used CD's anyway is downloading really that big of a deal or "wrong"? What do ya'll think?
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10-19-2008 22:51 |
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God-rules
Happy Roy
Registration Date: 06-03-2004
Posts: 6,359
Location: buffyverse
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
the tax is on the purchase, not on the item.... you make the purchase, you pay the tax.....
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I'm not sure I agree with that. If it were true and only the transaction would be taxed, as opposed to the individual item........then all items (since it isn't the item but the transaction that is taxed) would be taxed equally. But we, of course, know that isn't true. In my state there is NO tax on food or drugs, but other items are taxed at a certain percentage, then what about gas, we know there are many and different taxes on fuel, food at a restaurant is taxed even though it isn't taxed at the grocer. Hotel rooms are taxed, which isn't even a tangible item.
Michaeltaxingisn'tit?
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I chop down trees
I eat my lunch
I go to the lavat'ry
I'm gonna put my carbon footprint right up a greenies lactose intolerant hind end! - squidzit 2008
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10-20-2008 05:22 |
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larryl
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 06-01-2004
Posts: 18,657
Location: hotlanta
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laws definitely vary.... and like you say.. in some states different items are taxed differently...
i guess in your scenario, i would say that different transactions are priced differently...
wiki (not the best source, but sometimes good) says sales tax is basically a consumption tax.... which makes sense.
consider this..... when you buy something, new or used, from a business, you pay tax. if you buy from an individual, you do not....
so the tax is actually on the business, but they pass it on to you.
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10-20-2008 05:48 |
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larryl
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 06-01-2004
Posts: 18,657
Location: hotlanta
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Nailtatt
So if you are going to buy used CD's anyway is downloading really that big of a deal or "wrong"? What do ya'll think? |
to the artist's wallet, it's not much difference...
but here is where it is legally different....
when you buy a used CD, you have the CD, and the other person doesn't (in theory.. these days, they probably ripped it to their hard drive before selling it)........ but when you download it, you have it, and they still have it too.....
also... legally, when you buy a CD, you are buying a license to have that music.... when you sell the CD, you sell that license..... when you download from iTunes, you are buying a license to have it on a set number of devices or media.........
when you download illegally, you haven't purchased a license.....
it's kind of like the software deal, where in a business, you have to have the physical discs on the premises, in case of audit, to prove you are licensed for that software.... they don't care if it was new or used when you bought it, but you have better have it there.
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10-20-2008 05:51 |
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larryl
Rocks in your Head
Registration Date: 06-01-2004
Posts: 18,657
Location: hotlanta
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geez... my head is full of useless knowledge this morning!
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10-20-2008 05:52 |
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God-rules
Happy Roy
Registration Date: 06-03-2004
Posts: 6,359
Location: buffyverse
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And then there is the whole thing about buying from a business out of state.......
We bought furniture from a store in Illinois (25 miles away from us in Indiana.
I thought I could save the delivery charge by picking it up myself, we have a pick-up and a trailer.
They told me if I picked it up, I had to pay tax on it. If they delivered it, since it was going to a different sate, I didn't have to pay tax. The tax was more than the delivery charge, so i had it delivered.
Michaelgofigure
__________________
I chop down trees
I eat my lunch
I go to the lavat'ry
I'm gonna put my carbon footprint right up a greenies lactose intolerant hind end! - squidzit 2008
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10-20-2008 06:16 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 05-27-2004
Posts: 1,383
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10-20-2008 06:51 |
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MarkyMark77
Drowning with Land in Sight
Registration Date: 03-24-2005
Posts: 465
Favorite 77s album: 99
Location: Illinois
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| quote: |
| Everything depends on a series of variables that have to be considered. |
Yeah, there are so many nuances to this discussion.
Downloading is essentially making multiple copies of something, while selling a used CD is a transfer of only one copy.
Either way, I would love to see some downloads of, if not regular studio albums, demos, live shows, and other miscellany.
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10-20-2008 08:18 |
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