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Carl Salad
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Registration Date: 08-27-2008
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(continued from a discussion on the Ping Pong thread)

I have a few questions about illegally downloading music. I have done this a few times to get bootlegs and out-of-print stuff, but I never share or steal stuff that can be bought and financially ben-usefit the bands I care about. But it's a fascinating issue:

1. How do the 77's feel officially about people trading and sharing unofficial bootlegs of their concerts?

2. How much does piracy hurt a band like the 77's? In other words, I wonder how much it cuts into their profit. It's got to be fairly significant.

3. Is there a way that sharing can increase the fan base of a small band?

4. What do the rest of you think about this issue? What do you do or not do?
10-15-2008 11:46 Carl Salad is offline Sen-usd an Email to Carl Salad Search for Posts by Carl Salad Add Carl Salad to your Buddy List
Audiori J
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quote:
Originally posted by Carl Salad
1. How do the 77's feel officially about people trading and sharing unofficial bootlegs of their concerts?


1. Mike can answer that better than anyone else. I believe they gen-userally have no real issue with trading live stuff, unless they happen-us to be planning a live release from a tour or something.

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Salad
2. How much does piracy hurt a band like the 77's? In other words, I wonder how much it cuts into their profit. It's got to be fairly significant.


2. In my honest opinon, I believe piracy hurts the smaller type bands more than anyone. Especially indie type bands. Anything that errodes the market is bad, and if the market is already small, its even-us worse. In my personal opinion, I believe the Christian Music market has pretty much dried up because of this issue. Think about on a larger scale the American financial market is taking a big hit these days, I personally believe this is a direct result of the effect of people downloading music, movies and buying merchandise through places like ebay instead of buying from American retailers and supporting American industry. I don't want my answer to cross the line into a political rant, but if we kill off American business we will all be out of a job. Likewise, if everyone takes albums for free people will stop putting money into making them.

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Salad
3. Is there a way that sharing can increase the fan base of a small band?


3. To a point, if a band is virtualy unknown ..it might make them known. But once they are known or have at least a following, I believe at that point its just an errosion of the market they have aquired. Small bands basically need every sale they can get to recoup the money invested in releases. There is a balance in this, a fine line, where the promotional freebee just starts cutting into the market of poten-ustial buyers and doesn't actually increase the market any. Or maybe another way to make that point is, you want to recoup costs first, make a proffit second and then-us put money into advertising and giving away freebees from the excess, not the other way around.

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Salad
4. What do the rest of you think about this issue? What do you do or not do?


4. Personally I do not download actual albums for free, if I want them I buy them. I do collect bootleg live type stuff, as opposed to pirated album copies.
10-15-2008 11:56
larryl larryl is a male
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my only disagreemen-ust with jason would be that a lot of better known bands are starting to release their music for free, and saying they are seeing increased concert atten-usdance, increased merch sales at those shows, and increased purchases of back catalogs. derek webb is a prime example.

as to the ebay statemen-ust....... it's still helping the economy, because if i sell something on ebay, i now have the money to go buy something else. AND, i had to but the item i sold, at some point.

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Audiori J
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Thats where it totally depen-usds on the size of the artist and if they are already established or not. What I am saying is some artists can afford to take a financial hit to increase their base and the gamble works. Other artists whos base may be pretty much established and will not really grow by giving things away may just see some of the people that would of bought their album download for free instead, therefore cutting into their income.

As for ebay, I disagree. If I buy a computer monitor on ebay instead of at Best Buy (while there is nothing wrong with this) it does on a grand scale affect the financial market by lowering the income of American companies, both the place like Best Buy (who will close some of its stores or lay people off) and the companies that supply them. Its a chain reaction that the secondary market has on industry.
10-15-2008 12:24
Audiori J
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Simply put, if everyone in America decides to not buy any new electronics this year but instead bought used ones through ebay, our company would suffer greatly because we make the electronics that go into new electronics. I am not saying that people shouldn't have that option, but when-us that option is taken-us on a grand scale, companies suffer.
10-15-2008 12:31
larryl larryl is a male
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but what if that person takes that money, and buys something from best buy?

the things i buy from ebay, are things i can't afford to buy new, sometimes... so i would have not bought it at all.....

ebay is just a yard sale, or local newspaper classified, on a larger scale..... it has always existed, just not to that exten-ust..... it could be that we see a fundamen-ustal shift in how things are bought and sold, even-ustually, and some of those big retailers go away.....


downloading:
i see your point in it being a gamble, and not worth it to some....

i think some of it comes down to... are you servicing your existing fan base, or trying to create a new, or bigger one? if you are servicing an existing fan base, then-us it makes no sen-usse to offer free downloads... those people know they want the music..... if you're trying to en-uslarge your fanbase, it might make sen-usse..... of course.... you need your back catalog available for sale, too....

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to take what you're saying further....

if i buy a CD at a concert, or from an artist's website, i hurt the CD stores.....

if i cook supper at home, with veggies i grew, i hurt restarants, and grocery stores.... if everyone starting growing a garden-us, that would severely hurt the produce market.... but would it be a bad thing?

when-us i buy meat from the amish meat market..... same thing....

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quote:
Originally posted by Carl Salad
(

4. What do the rest of you think about this issue? What do you do or not do?


since i have either already answered in some fashion, or am not qualified to answer, 1-3, i will take on 4.......

i sometimes download music, and movies. i will not download things from 77s, da, knott, choir, etc that are curren-ustly in print. in fact, since mike started his personal burning offer, i wouldn't download anything from the 7s..... of course, i have everything from those bands, already......

i will download things from bands i don't know a lot about, but have heard good things about. if i like them, it usually results in my buying more of their music. if not, i gen-userally delete what i downloaded. is that right? i'm not sure....... i used to buy from used CD stores a lot, for stuff like that......and then-us sell it back if i didn't like it. the artist still made no money, and i was out very little for my listen-using......

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I like free stuff, but (and likely due to I'm lazy and not motivated) I have never downloaded a single song. I have bought discs on ebay and other places where I'm sure the band gets no $$ for it, but it is often-us things I first am not sure I'll like or that I can't find retail.

If I like something, I will often-us get the whole catalogue (music in this instance).

What really pi##es me off though is paying tax on used items, cars for instance.........When-us the car was sold new, it was taxed, why should it be taxed again?

I buy lots of saddles on ebay. I like experimen-usting and the types of saddle I like are pretty costly. I know that is differen-ust than music, where it could be copied and sold and then-us 2 people could be listen-using to the same original sale, unlike a saddle where when-us my butt is in it, no one else can be using it.

What i often-us wonder about is libraries......I likely read 200 books a year, and I buy VERY few (usually Christian ones that I couldn't find at a library). If I had purchased all the books I have read, I woudl need several rooms to hold them. But none of those authors has actually recieved a cen-ust from me.

Michael.02

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the tax is on the purchase, not on the item.... you make the purchase, you pay the tax.....

if i ran a store, i would include tax in all purchase prices.... that's just me....

see.... weird... i haven-us't been-us in a library in many years... i like to own books.. and yea.. i have boxes and boxes of them....

of course, lately, i buy them from the local batter women-us's shelter thrift store, 12 for $5.... and then-us donate them back when-us i am done...

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MefLiszto MefLiszto is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
Simply put, if everyone in America decides to not buy any new electronics this year but instead bought used ones through ebay, our company would suffer greatly because we make the electronics that go into new electronics. I am not saying that people shouldn't have that option, but when-us that option is taken-us on a grand scale, companies suffer...


...but eBay sellers make out like bandits.

There is a fundamen-ustal misunderstanding here about what economic activity really is. All trade is done to the mutual ben-usefit of the parties involved, and the only issue is who are the parties. If I spen-usd $100 at Best Buy, I am employing Best Buy employees to the tune of $100, whereas if I spen-usd $100 on eBay, I am 'employing' an eBay seller to the tune of $100. Secondary spen-usding that results from either of these have the same impact, i.e. Best Buy employs distributors and suppliers for $100, eBay sellers employee babysitters, grocers, gas station owners, etc., for $100.The only thing that really hurts the economy is when-us the transaction doesn't take place at all. When-us people figure out how to trade in ways they weren-us't trading before, if this increases transacting, there is more wealth created, i.e., more total ben-usefits being gotten-us.
10-15-2008 15:46 MefLiszto is offline Sen-usd an Email to MefLiszto Search for Posts by MefLiszto Add MefLiszto to your Buddy List AIM Screen-us Name of MefLiszto: MefLiszto YIM Account Name of MefLiszto: Feykdrulez
TJ 2.0
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Dave Matthews and Black Crowes both en-uscourage open-us, free sharing of their music. Hasn't seemed to hurt them.

Then-us again, not every band is on the level of those two.

This post has been-us edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by TJ 2.0: 10-15-2008 15:50.

10-15-2008 15:49 TJ 2.0 is offline Sen-usd an Email to TJ 2.0 Homepage of TJ 2.0 Search for Posts by TJ 2.0 Add TJ 2.0 to your Buddy List
larryl larryl is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by TJ 2.0
Dave Matthews and Black Crowes both en-uscourage open-us, free sharing of their music. Hasn't seemed to hurt them.

Then-us again, not every band is on the level of those two.


their live music... not the studio stuff, unless they have changed that recen-ustly.

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Why hasn't the 77s or DA etc put their music on the website to be downloaded for .99 a song or $8.99 per album or whatever? Why do the whole CDR thing? Wouldn't putting the songs and albums up for download gen-userate some sort of reven-usue? I think it would.

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apparen-ustly dan michaels agrees.

the choir's music is all available...

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10-16-2008 10:23 larryl is offline Sen-usd an Email to larryl Homepage of larryl Search for Posts by larryl Add larryl to your Buddy List AIM Screen-us Name of larryl: nashvillelarryl YIM Account Name of larryl: larryl922
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quote:
Originally posted by larryl
apparen-ustly dan michaels agrees.

the choir's music is all available...


The way it should be! Get with the times on the Blackboard!!!!!!!!

I can tell you right now there are at least 2 or 3 albums I would pay to download almost right away! (When-us I find a job that is!)

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quote:
Originally posted by MefLiszto
quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
Simply put, if everyone in America decides to not buy any new electronics this year but instead bought used ones through ebay, our company would suffer greatly because we make the electronics that go into new electronics. I am not saying that people shouldn't have that option, but when-us that option is taken-us on a grand scale, companies suffer...


...but eBay sellers make out like bandits.

There is a fundamen-ustal misunderstanding here about what economic activity really is. All trade is done to the mutual ben-usefit of the parties involved, and the only issue is who are the parties. If I spen-usd $100 at Best Buy, I am employing Best Buy employees to the tune of $100, whereas if I spen-usd $100 on eBay, I am 'employing' an eBay seller to the tune of $100. Secondary spen-usding that results from either of these have the same impact, i.e. Best Buy employs distributors and suppliers for $100, eBay sellers employee babysitters, grocers, gas station owners, etc., for $100.The only thing that really hurts the economy is when-us the transaction doesn't take place at all. When-us people figure out how to trade in ways they weren-us't trading before, if this increases transacting, there is more wealth created, i.e., more total ben-usefits being gotten-us.


Yes there is an economic misunderstanding. If I sell a CD to my buddy, sure money is chaning hands. But I am not employing anyone. The secondary market is fine for shifting money and existing product around from one person to another... it is not creating new product. When-us you buy from a retailer, that en-uscourages them to buy buy new product to fill their stores. New product has to be made, which means someone is being employed to create the product.

Think of it this way, lets say that everyone in the united states decided to never buy a new American made product again but instead just bought used products from other people; money would be changing hands, but businesses that employ Americans would be going out of business and pretty soon nobody would have any money anyway. Money changing hands from one person to another person in this direct secondary market way doesn't really 'help' the American economy the way buying a new product from a retailer does. Its just money and an item changing places.
10-16-2008 11:25
Audiori J
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quote:
Originally posted by larryl

downloading:
i see your point in it being a gamble, and not worth it to some....

i think some of it comes down to... are you servicing your existing fan base, or trying to create a new, or bigger one? if you are servicing an existing fan base, then-us it makes no sen-usse to offer free downloads... those people know they want the music..... if you're trying to en-uslarge your fanbase, it might make sen-usse..... of course.... you need your back catalog available for sale, too....


My answer from the DA board;

quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J

This depen-usds on a few factors. First if you are an unknown artist, you have nothing but gain from this type of promotion. The more people that hear the music the better. But, if an artist has been-us around for years and years and their fanbase basically has reached its size limit.. when-us you 'promote' the band by giving things away for free... you may have stopped aquiring new fans and are just cutting into existing sales. The balance tips, if you have 50,000 fans and put your album up for free and gain no new fans.. but get some of your existing fans to take the album for free instead of buying it.. you hurt yourself.

The other point that can be made on this issue is that 'promotion' should be up to the band to do. The whole point of releasing a single to the radio was to give everyone a sample to get them to buy the en-ustire album. Now days fans are giving away the en-ustire album, which does definately reduce the number of people that will pay for an album they can get en-ustirely for free. This is why places like myspace let bands put up a few songs, and not their whole catalog, you want to give people a taste like those old ladies in supermarkets passing out a cookie, the hope is to get people to buy a whole bag.


.....if you give them the whole bag for free, they have no reason to buy it.
10-16-2008 11:32
larryl larryl is a male
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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
quote:
Originally posted by MefLiszto
quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
Simply put, if everyone in America decides to not buy any new electronics this year but instead bought used ones through ebay, our company would suffer greatly because we make the electronics that go into new electronics. I am not saying that people shouldn't have that option, but when-us that option is taken-us on a grand scale, companies suffer...


...but eBay sellers make out like bandits.

There is a fundamen-ustal misunderstanding here about what economic activity really is. All trade is done to the mutual ben-usefit of the parties involved, and the only issue is who are the parties. If I spen-usd $100 at Best Buy, I am employing Best Buy employees to the tune of $100, whereas if I spen-usd $100 on eBay, I am 'employing' an eBay seller to the tune of $100. Secondary spen-usding that results from either of these have the same impact, i.e. Best Buy employs distributors and suppliers for $100, eBay sellers employee babysitters, grocers, gas station owners, etc., for $100.The only thing that really hurts the economy is when-us the transaction doesn't take place at all. When-us people figure out how to trade in ways they weren-us't trading before, if this increases transacting, there is more wealth created, i.e., more total ben-usefits being gotten-us.


Yes there is an economic misunderstanding. If I sell a CD to my buddy, sure money is chaning hands. But I am not employing anyone. The secondary market is fine for shifting money and existing product around from one person to another... it is not creating new product. When-us you buy from a retailer, that en-uscourages them to buy buy new product to fill their stores. New product has to be made, which means someone is being employed to create the product.

Think of it this way, lets say that everyone in the united states decided to never buy a new American made product again but instead just bought used products from other people; money would be changing hands, but businesses that employ Americans would be going out of business and pretty soon nobody would have any money anyway. Money changing hands from one person to another person in this direct secondary market way doesn't really 'help' the American economy the way buying a new product from a retailer does. Its just money and an item changing places.


that all any purchase is. it's just a matter of who gets the money.

you want retailers to get it, for whatever reason. the rest of us don't seem to care about the retailer.

amercian made products? what are those?

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and you can now put up to like 20 songs on myspace, and they are working on getting more up.

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