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Posted by MarkyMark77 on 11-24-2008 at08:37:

  Borrowing from "The Lust, The Flesh..."

Yet another artist, in an effort to latch on Dr. Love's fame, has borrowed from his biggest hit song:

Jon Foreman's "Southbound Train"

I do enjoy his solo album. This was just interesting.

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Posted by 77sfan on 11-24-2008 at17:05:

  RE: Borrowing from "The Lust, The Flesh..."

Good tune, but trying to tie it to "The Lust..." is quite a stretch.

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Posted by TJ 2.0 on 11-24-2008 at17:16:

 

And technically, the borrowing would actually be from Barry, would it not?

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Posted by 77sfan on 11-24-2008 at17:18:

 

quote:

Originally posted by TJ 2.0 And technically, the borrowing would actually be from Barry, would it not?

Yep, from "Eve of Destruction."

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Posted by Doctor Love on 11-24-2008 at18:46:

  you're both wrong

I stole The Lust's opening riff from 'Eve Of Destruction'. The riff that 'Southbound Train' steals is the second guitar riff in the song. Few folks know that I also stole that riff and part of the chords of the chorus from an unknown band in Rhode Island, so I suppose the 'ol karmic wheel is still in spin ~~

quote:

Originally posted by 77sfan quote: Originally posted by TJ 2.0 And technically, the borrowing would actually be from Barry, would it not? Yep, from "Eve of Destruction."

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Posted by MarkyMark77 on 11-24-2008 at18:48:

 

quote:

Good tune, but trying to tie it to "The Lust..." is quite a stretch.

Except for the riff, which is what I was talking about.

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Posted by 77sfan on 11-24-2008 at19:50:

 

quote:

Originally posted by MarkyMark77 quote: Good tune, but trying to tie it to "The Lust..." is quite a stretch. Except for the riff, which is what I was talking about.

Even the riff of which you speak is barely there and is being used in the folk tradition of stealing from one generation to the next. I'm sure the guys the Doc. copped the lic from copped it from somewhere else. Not trying to start an argument just furthering the conversation.

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Posted by MarkyMark77 on 11-24-2008 at20:28:

 

Didn't really have an issue with any of it. But, it was the first time I'd heard the song and, as Mike said, heard it as part of the second guitar riff. Really it was just a silly post. But, being the 77s fanboy that I am, it really stood out to me. I was a bit tickled. It was kind of like hearing 311 sing those lines from "The Lust..." Totally unexpected and out of the blue.

That whole tradition (blues, too) borrows and it's interesting to see how people react to it now. Bob Dylan's "Modern Times" is, by and large, borrowed tunes, but it's all credited to Dylan. He has had some criticism for it, and has had criticism before for the same kind of thing. The funny thing is that it's not new for him, and certainly was not new for those early folk icons who inspired him.

I think it shows gratitude if it's done well, and not an out and out rip-off.

How does the saying go? Talent borrows, Genius steals.

BTW, the Foreman disc is excellent. I was surprised. I've always kind of tolerated Switchfoot, thinking that they were somewhat decent. But this disc is quite a depature, really hearing Jon Foreman sound like Nick Drake with Dylan-esque arrangements. And the subject matter is great, honest stuff.

quote:

I'm sure the guys the Doc. copped the lic from copped it from somewhere else. Not trying to start an argument just furthering the conversation.

I wonder where it did originate from. I always wonder when I write tunes if I've copped it from someone else subconsciously, a la "My Sweet Lord". Then again, I don't have anything to worry about. Only my wife and about 10 other people have ever heard my music!

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Posted by jedwardk on 11-29-2008 at18:07:

 

Not sure if anyone else ever noticed this, but the rhythm guitar in "Gentle Moon" from Sun Kil Moon (aka Mark Kozelek, Red House Painters) is also incredibly similar to TLTFTE...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgFVFugpvRE

you have to listen closely to hear it in the video...

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Posted by Doctor Love on 11-29-2008 at23:02:

  talent borrows indeed

I got to finally hear Southbound Train tonight, and it hurt me to my soul.

What goes around comes around, I guess. There's another country guy that kyped the hook too, but I can't remember his name or the title of that song. I will mention it when I do.

I think this stuff just hurts because Charlie Peacock exec produced Foreman's disc and reportedly gets all the money for his publishing (Switchfoot's, at least) and he didn't even bother to encourage dude to change the hook up even a little bit. It's pretty blatant, but what the hell can I do? You can't sue for hooks very well. You have to prove access (easy in this case) and intent (never easy in any case) and a lot of other stuff. The 311 violation was simple because that combo of words could have never occurred by accident or unconsciously.

I just get bitter sometimes having to struggle to get by and these guys who are already filthy rich end up taking little jewels of mine to the bank. I know that's terrible and selfish and mean-spirited, but I feel that way on bad days. On good days, I'm proud to be trafficking in ideas good enough to be considered usable by very talented people like Foreman, so in the end it's all a wash. All these things are gifts in the first place. You don't ever really own them in the end. And let's not forget all the great classical composers who died penniless before the days of copyrights and we still buy and sell their music. For free.

It's all very strange to ponder sometimes. I'm just grateful to have any God-given talent at all. That's a real privilege, rich or poor.

(Southbound Train is a lovely tune, btw, and his voice is very nice in this kinda setting. How can I knock that?)