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Posted by Joey T. on 10-16-2008 at11:49:

Noting the music industry's complaints that illegal downloading means people are getting their music for free, he said, "Well, why not? It ain't worth nothing anyway....."- Bob Dylan

Big Grin

Posted by Nailtatt on 10-16-2008 at12:19:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J

Think of it this way, lets say that everyone in the united states decided to never buy a new American made product again but instead just bought used products from other people; money would be changing hands, but businesses that employ Americans would be going out of business and pretty soon nobody would have any money anyway. Money changing hands from one person to another person in this direct secondary market way doesn't really 'help' the American economy the way buying a new product from a retailer does. Its just money and an item changing places.

Well that is totally unrealistic and almost ridiculous to point out. That would never happen.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at13:55:

Its a common way to think through the morality of an issue by asking "what if everyone did it?"

Its not thinking that it could actually happen... its just a way of thinking it through.

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at13:58:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
Its a common way to think through the morality of an issue by asking "what if everyone did it?"

Its not thinking that it could actually happen... its just a way of thinking it through.

common for who?

i spoke with an economist today (PhD level) who said this whole premise is ridiculous.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at13:59:

quote:

Why hasn't the 77s or DA etc put their music on the website to be downloaded for .99 a song or $8.99 per album or whatever?

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
apparently dan michaels agrees.

the choir's music is all available...

Two things.

1) In the case of DA: They don't own most of their music. They can't offer something for download unless they can negotiate download rights (which has to be separately negotiated from reissue rights in most cases). If they can get the rights to rerelease something, they almost always prefer to do a nice CD with packaging. And if they get those rights, they don't necessarily get download rights.

77s Downloads will most likely be coming in some form.. its been discussed and ideas have been thrown around for quite a while. Its just a matter of doing it right I think. There is something along those lines currently in the works.

2) Dan has the legal rights to do it apparently... but, from what I understand, its almost worthless for them. I don't think they sell much that way at all.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at14:00:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl

quote:

common for who?

i spoke with an economist today (PhD level) who said this whole premise is ridiculous.

Common for... humans? I've heard it used all my life for a large variety of debates. The economist (PhD level) is ridiculous. Economists are rarely experts on ethics or moral issues however.

Its like when someone says "its ok to steal a piece of bread, because its just one little piece and they have many...they'll never miss it." If you ask yourself "What if everyone did it?" - the problem with that bread theft becomes obvious. The economic consequences of universal bread theft also start to become apparent.. pretty soon the person you're stealing from has no bread. If its not OK for everyone, why is it ok for one? It doesn't work for every single issue, but it does work for a lot of things.

Posted by Nailtatt on 10-16-2008 at14:02:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori

quote:

Why hasn't the 77s or DA etc put their music on the website to be downloaded for .99 a song or $8.99 per album or whatever?

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
apparently dan michaels agrees.

the choir's music is all available...

Two things.

1) In the case of DA: They don't own most of their music. They can't offer something for download unless they can negotiate download rights (which has to be separately negotiated from reissue rights in most cases). If they can get the rights to rerelease something, they almost always prefer to do a nice CD with packaging. And if they get those rights, they don't necessarily get download rights.

77s Downloads will most likely be coming in some form.. its been discussed and ideas have been thrown around for quite a while. Its just a matter of doing it right I think.

2) Dan has the legal rights to do it apparently... but, from what I understand, its almost worthless for them. I don't think they sell much that way at all.

I didn't think it would be this huge financial windfall for anybody, just that its one more thing that might help here and there at least for the 77s anyway. I can't imagine there is much expense in putting them up for download so once it's done, it should be mostly a little bit of gravy out of whatever is sold.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at14:09:

When it comes to file sharing or illegal copying... Bottom line for me is the artists wishes.

If they want to make their music available as downloads (free or for sale). Then fine.
If they don't, then thats ok too.
If they want their fans to be able to trade CDRs or bootlegs, then good for them.
If they don't want to allow that, then their fans should respect that.

Good or bad, I don't think it should be forced on any artist by their fans or anyone else.

Posted by nick on 10-16-2008 at14:15:

It does bother me quite a bit that people would (what I call) steal music. Should music be sold/is it worth it or too much etc. I don't know but what I do know is that it doesn't matter. If it is music or cars or anything else if someone is making it and selling it and you don't pay for it but own it...it is stealing. I don't know why people have a hard time with that when it comes to music. Some people make money off of selling cars other pizza and others music. I have heard it say that well they are so rich already that it doesn't matter or they hardly work to make their music to sell but to me none of that matters. If I was the richest man in the world and I had a business making something and someone came and took one without paying they still stole it from me even though I am rich! Now would it be cool if the richest person would start to give stuff away...well of course but that isn't MY moral obligation mine is to do what is right no matter what. Like the artists that are giving away their Cds, that's cool. Like on Noisetrader. But they are either financially able to do that or are fairly new or unknown and have nothing to lose Smile

People like Derek Webb or Sixpence or Chris Taylor. Chris did a cool thing with his. It is kind of a smatering of recent stuff he has done so people get a little taste of everything he does and then maybe if they like it go and buy stuff from him. Which leads to the whole comp CDs that people make...those may end up helping the artists if you have a couple songs on one to get someone interested then they may go buy the whole CD. But not sure about that.

I am not sure about the whole if it is not available thing because like it has been said if you buy it from ebay or whatever the band isn't making money anyways. Or if the band isn't even around anymore they aren't going to see money from it, if it is even available still. But I do like to have the original copies of albums so I generally don't like to just have a download so if I could get an out of print CD for decent at ebay etc. I would do that even if I could get a free copy somewhere.

Well there is my dollars worth!

Posted by nick on 10-16-2008 at14:17:

Oh and it would be cool to see some 77s downloads. I have everything by them but some of the rare stuff like the scratch band stuff or different takes etc. I would be them up like a bear eats honey Smile

Oh and speaking of concerts I would LOVE to have a copy of the 77s recent live show if anyone has a good copy or if there is plan for a release of one!!! (NKlempp@comcat.net) Smile

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at15:37:

eric.... i meant he said the premise that downloading and ebay contributed to the downfall of the economy is ridiculous, sorry i wasn't more clear.

as to the everyone thing.....

i've never heard that type of logic used, except by my mom "if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you?" sorry, i don't base my morality on what everyone does, or what would happen if everyone did something.

what if everyone became christians? who would we spread the gospel to? we should stop that. think of the missionaries and pastors who would be out of work!!

in fact, what if's are always a weak argument, as they almost never stand up to any scrutiny. if that's the best you have, then you really have nothing.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at17:09:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
i've never heard that type of logic used, except by my mom "if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you?" sorry, i don't base my morality on what everyone does, or what would happen if everyone did something....

in fact, what if's are always a weak argument, as they almost never stand up to any scrutiny. if that's the best you have, then you really have nothing.

This logic question has nothing to do with basing your morality on anything. Base it on whatever you want... either it holds up logically or it doesn't.

"What If"s are not always a weak argument, especially if the answer is obvious. In most cases, its perfectly logical to question why something is ok to do in the childs eyes just because "everyone does it." In fact, you're agreeing with that logic by saying you don't base your morality on what everyone does... you've obviously reached the same conclusion that parents want their children to reach by asking that question.

People will justify almost any action by diminishing its effect... its not saying that its ok because everyone does it - its saying its ok because I'm probably the only one that does it (or close to it) and the effect is insignificant... "who cares if I steal this little piece of food when theres so much in the store?" "Who cares if I run this one red light when I'm only one person?" "Who cares if I charge a little extra to the business account when its so small that the company won't even notice?"

People can make almost any type of bad behavior sound acceptable with this kind of logic. But, if you then say OK.. what if everyone used the same logic? What if everyone did all of these things? We'd have chaos. No one would be stopping at red lights and there would be accidents everywhere. No company would ever make a profit because everyone would be stealing from them. No store would have any food left in it because it would all be shoplifted. Its not suggesting that any of these things are going to happen... its just pointing out the flaw in the justification. Most people that I've heard use that kind of logic to justify bad behavior would be very quick to admit that it would be disastrous if everyone did the same thing.

They're essentially holding the world to a different standard than the one they hold themselves to. The reality is, in many cases, if its not "OK" for everyone to do a thing, then its not "OK" for the individual either. This question is just a way to make that same point.

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at18:36:

guess my brain, and the people i associate with, just don't think like that.

as usual, it seems to me you have a very odd way of seeing things.

i notice you ignored my example of why your line of thinking is flawed.

there are thousands of things, that if everyone did them, would result in problems, that doesn't make them wrong.

it doesn't matter what would happen if everyone did something, because it's not going to happen.therefore, it's silly to even use it. and weak, as i said.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at18:58:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
i notice you ignored my example of why your line of thinking is flawed.

For space.

The "what if everyone became a Christian?" thing is not the same at all. If everyone became a Christian then the calling of those missionaries and pastors would be fulfilled. Wouldn't that make them happy?

quote:

there are thousands of things, that if everyone did them, would result in problems, that doesn't make them wrong.

And I said that it doesn't work in every single case. All analogies and arguments break down at some point. That doesn't mean they should all be discarded.

quote:

guess my brain, and the people i associate with, just don't think like that.
as usual, it seems to me you have a very odd way of seeing things.

So?

You talk to people every day of your life that you don't agree 100% with... do you have to constantly tell them all "Gee, I guess you have a very odd way of seeing things?"

We should be discussing topics without feeling the need to try to putdown or belittle the other person or their viewpoints.

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at19:43:

i'm not putting you down....

i'm stating the oft mentioned fact that you seem to view things strangely.

your logic seems to make no sense, to many people.

and yes, when people say certain things, i let them know they have an odd, or unorthodox way of looking at things.

Posted by Doctor Love on 10-16-2008 at19:43:

very Audiori way of seeing things

Yeh, what Eric said.

Folks love to pick on our guys. The nerve.

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at19:45:

not picking doc... trying to understand.

why aren't your pics working?

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at19:55:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
i'm not putting you down....

i'm stating the oft mentioned fact that you seem to view things strangely.

your logic seems to make no sense, to many people.

This is more of the same... an "oft mentioned fact"? So its a "fact" now? It might be mentioned fairly often because I think you say it every time we talk about anything.

"Many people?" Have you taken a poll? Who cares if my logic doesn't make sense to "many" people? I can guarantee your logic doesn't make sense to "many" people either. Do I point it out to you every time we talk? I don't even feel an ounce of need to do that... I also do not feel the need to count how many people agree with me, as if that means anything.

We need to show respect to each other and their viewpoints on this board.