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Go to the bottom of this page What's your favorite new song?
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Audiori J
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Its all about focus. I thought of an analogy;

If everyone on earth had a irritating skin disease, and all kinds of people found ways to alleviate the itch. Everyone had their own way. Then a doctor comes up with a salve that works really well. People use the salve, it helps a lot. Some people use it and some use their own remedies, people argue about which works better. Then the doctor finds a cure in the form of a pill taken internally. A few people take the cure and find out it actually works to kill off the disease. Those that are cured have a choice, they can join in the debate of how to deal with the effects of the disease on those that are still effected or they can spread the news of the cure.

The ways of the world, the laws, police, courts, governments, judges, kings, rulers, wars, etc are about dealing with the outward effects of the inward problem of sin. They are not the cure. We can argue all day about which things work best to alleviate the effects of evil in the world, or we can share the Gospel. Lead people to Christ. Its why Christ didn't come to do away with the Law, it serves its purpose.

Christians need to put their focus on the answer, the cure, love for one another. If we spend our time doing what we are called to do, we won't have time to throw stones at what we deem are the sins of the world.
08-11-2006 17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
The ways of the world, the laws, police, courts, governments, judges, kings, rulers, wars, etc are about dealing with the outward effects of the inward problem of sin. They are not the cure. We can argue all day about which things work best to alleviate the effects of evil in the world, or we can share the Gospel. Lead people to Christ. Its why Christ didn't come to do away with the Law, it serves its purpose.



Nancy Pearcey (Total Truth) points out that over the last several decades Christians have increasingly focussed on political activism as an attemped "quick fix" on culture - when instead, she points out, there have been some legislative victories but a loss of culture - because too often politics gets substituted for influence via a Christlike life.

I'd like to thing that maybe that's slowly starting to reverse.

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People in Germany are still thankful to the USA for going against Hitler, otherwise our whole continent would have become either fascist or Soviet. So in my opinion... that was probably one "good war", but it's really hard to think of others. And it surely doesn't mean that we like everything the present president does.

The lyrics of "Love takes over the world", "Red White & Blue", "Bush league" and "Burn it up" were political statements. Everyone's allowed to have a personal opinion to any subject. But "That's where Jesus is" makes a statement about God's opinion, and I consider that difficult. I doubt it's wise to use Jesus as the horse to draw your political message carriage.

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audiori
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But thats assuming that "Thats Where Jesus Is" is putting God on the side of or against any of the things listed. As posted before, if you look at the lyrics as a whole, that makes no sense. It can't be bad to both save trees and kill them for example. Thinking that it's supporting or attacking any specific view is exactly the opposite of the point of the song, in my opinion.

To me, the entire point of the song is "My kingdom is not of this world." Everything listed is. The Hebrews wanted a political King, and they got a homeless outcast. He didn't spend His time fighting political fights, lobbying politicians, campaigning or on picket lines.

It's not that everything listed is all bad, all good, or anything else. It's not that we can't have an opinion or even take part in politics or anything like that... it's just saying that's not His focus and it shouldn't be ours. Our hope is not in the stuff of earth - whether it's saving trees or killing them.

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Audiori J
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Yeah those things are temporal.

Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

You can fight the political fight all you want, you can save as many trees as you want, or win a war ... and lose your soul. And those around you that have not heard the Gospel will lose theirs as well. While youre fiddling Rome is burning. That doesn't mean playing the fiddle is good or bad, but if the world is going to hell...maybe there is better work we can be doing.

2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Its the focus, it should be on things eternal. Wars come and go, anyone here know exactly how many wars there have been in history? You know Christ lived under the rule of Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire? The largest, cruelest, conquesting , waring nation ever... what was Christ's focus on? Politics? Or saving and helping people? He had His focus on what is important.

Walking on the water
What a pleasant surprise!
Walking on the water
Tryin' to keep my eyes on the One I'm confiding in
One I'm abiding in... walking on the water

Now, things get rough and I look to the right
I'd seen Jesus so plainly, now I've lost sight
I start sinking down
And a hand reaches out to me down under the waves
Once again I know that Jesus saves
It's then I find
Oh, there am I... walking on the water


The things of the world are like the waves. They are shifting sands or the waves at sea, Christ is eternal, the solid Rock. Our focus should be on him, we should 'keep his commandments' if we love him.
08-12-2006 09:29
Audiori J
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Maybe the best way to say it is you can either kick at the darkness, or shed some light. You can either try and struggle with the effects of the worlds fallenness, or point them to the redeemer.
08-12-2006 09:52
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and hopefully find some balance to do a little of both?

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at least the balance in our lives to have some grace in the kicking and some love to actuall cast some light (why I struggle with profanity as believers, why not cast light, not that many of the words are blasphemous, but if the world sees it as "questionable", why add to that?) I guess is what I mean.

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quote:
Originally posted by lobo1023
I'm actually surprised at the "controversy" over this song. Where have some of you been? Terry Taylor, in all his forms, has always railed against injustice and foolishness in all of American Christian culture (including our "Christian" political landscape).


The only way I know Terry is from the Lost Dogs, and i know THEM because of the Choir and Derri Daugherty. I don't think I would have been a fan of Terry's music otherwise, especially in light of his political views and some of the songs you point out. I find it difficult to understand how some people think war is wrong on all grounds. Seems like a trendy thing that people do to be a part of the cool crowd in alot of cases here in America, and it's people like these who make our country ripe for conquering. But it must be so, if the world is to fall for the anti-Christ. He is the one who deceives everyone by bringing a false peace, which they want so badly that they are willing to sell out for it.

quote:
Originally posted by BigFiber
OK, so it's fair to say that Jesus was anti-war

If one of you has a big house, nice car, 60" flat screen...OR crappy house, 15 year old car, 13" black and white TV and someone comes in to your house and tries to take it. Do you attempt to stop them from taking your stuff by calling the police (or shooting them?) or do you give it to them and try to give them the gosple?

Please, I really want to know what you guys think. Is fighting war always a bad idea? If not, when is it? If it is always a bad idea, what is the altervative? I mean as a country? Should we have an America? Should we just be taken over and wait for Jesus to return?


I think that Jesus is anti-death, anti-sin, etc, but that he was not anti-war while on Earth. Afterall, He is God, and sent Joshua and Israel to uproot the dwellers of Canaan 'back in the day' (aren't you tired of that phrase???). His ministry during the Incarnation was, as someone metioned, to fulfill the Law, to destroy the works of satan, and to redeem us from our sins.

The 2nd one is a tough call. I think that as a husband and a dad, if someone breaks into my house, I have to assume that the aggressors are armed and dangerous, and in order to save the lives of those whom God has entrusted to my care, I'm gonna lock and load! The ones committing these sort of crimes are mindless concerning the victims, and while I'm not against sharing the Gospel, my first order of business is the lives of my family, then the souls of the criminals. Once the situation is in hand and the violators subdued, then I will show kindness and mercy as God gives me the grace to do so. But knowing me, I may show mercy by shooting out the knees instead of aiming between the eyes.

Is war a bad idea??? Well yeah, which is why you don't just jump into it.
Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' covers the subject quite well, and lists so many reasons why a leader had better know what he is doing before committing. However, despite our beloved songwriter's apparent hatred of war for any reason, there are some things worth sacrificing lives in the course of battle for, in order to achieve peace. To wage war to thwart tyranny or to stop cruelty to the masses, such as in Sudan, is just cause in my book. My take on Iraq is that we should have taken him out in 1991.I think it's all nice that we're helping the Iraqi people, but it hasn't been worth it...we should have spent the billions on fixing our roads or helping the gov't in Louisiana understand the ramifications of being in a hurricane zone. Should we pull out, heck yeah...I couldn't care less about Iraq or afghanistan. Save the money and come home. Admit failure, not defeat, to control the situation. Let God sort this one out.

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This business is goin' down. What a couple of Dummies!!!

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by mo_jojo: 08-13-2006 09:11.

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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
I think its a trap to fall into thinking Jesus is for or against anything. Its we that are either for or against him. He is not our "party crashing dog in this fight", he is not "subject to our big debates". People try to make him the poster child for their brand of politcs. He is bigger than your view.


What is a party-crashing dog???

ANyway, as far as Jesus and politics...consider Germany in the late 20's and early 30's. Would it have been better for the Christians there to take up political activism to hinder the rise of secular nationalism that led to the takeover by the Nazi party? or do you suppose just prayer and fasting would have helped, or a bit of both acitvism within the local community AND plenty of time in prayer and fasting by the body of believers? Or was this a situation that Jesus was neither for or against?

It sounds like some think that you are EITHER a political activist OR a practicing Christian. Isn't it possible to serve God by sharing the Gospel with others and living a clean life of example AND to work to bring about changes in our society that affect the lives and souls of men, women, and children???? Consider the increase in sexual crimes against kids in America...should we not lobby our governments to increase the punishments against these horrendous acts, etc? Should we NOT stand against abortion at will without consent, and without consequence to adult men who are impregnating minor girls in many of these cases? Should we not voice our opposition to same-sex marriage, and other immoral behaviors which the Word tells us to hate, when these come up as legal issues on the ballot? If we say nothing, we lose, as do our kids and their kids. And I think that if we back off, we let these guys have their way in our country, much like how Rome did nothing to stand up to the Hitler threat before it was too late.

Where we need to be careful, is to not let activism rule our lives. We must be balanced in our lives. God first. Family second. All the while living chaste lives of moderation....that's where we're failing. I think if we as a church, turned off the TV, spent a lot less time on the lake or in Cancun, cut back on the trips to the mall, didn't buy a bigger and better car every 2 years, etc. and put that time and money into the service of the Lord, we'd see results. Not that fun or shopping is bad, but I think we all know how we've each fallen into the materialism trap to some degree. If we rolled back the clock, and lived more like how we did in the 70's (not fashion-wise, mind you)...consuming and spending less (aka, being conservative) woudn't that free us up to do more for Christ and His kingdom? What's stopping us, people????

PS. sorry for the editing...spelling and grammar Big Grin

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This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by mo_jojo: 08-13-2006 10:01.

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quote:
Originally posted by mo_jojo
quote:
Originally posted by lobo1023
I'm actually surprised at the "controversy" over this song. Where have some of you been? Terry Taylor, in all his forms, has always railed against injustice and foolishness in all of American Christian culture (including our "Christian" political landscape).


The only way I know Terry is from the Lost Dogs, and i know THEM because of the Choir and Derri Daugherty. I don't think I would have been a fan of Terry's music otherwise, especially in light of his political views and some of the songs you point out. I find it difficult to understand how some people think war is wrong on all grounds. Seems like a trendy thing that people do to be a part of the cool crowd in alot of cases here in America, and it's people like these who make our country ripe for conquering. But it must be so, if the world is to fall for the anti-Christ. He is the one who deceives everyone by bringing a false peace, which they want so badly that they are willing to sell out for it.

quote:
Originally posted by BigFiber
OK, so it's fair to say that Jesus was anti-war

If one of you has a big house, nice car, 60" flat screen...OR crappy house, 15 year old car, 13" black and white TV and someone comes in to your house and tries to take it. Do you attempt to stop them from taking your stuff by calling the police (or shooting them?) or do you give it to them and try to give them the gosple?

Please, I really want to know what you guys think. Is fighting war always a bad idea? If not, when is it? If it is always a bad idea, what is the altervative? I mean as a country? Should we have an America? Should we just be taken over and wait for Jesus to return?


I think that Jesus is anti-death, anti-sin, etc, but that he was not anti-war while on Earth. Afterall, He is God, and sent Joshua and Israel to uproot the dwellers of Canaan 'back in the day' (aren't you tired of that phrase???). His ministry during the Incarnation was, as someone metioned, to fulfill the Law, to destroy the works of satan, and to redeem us from our sins.

The 2nd one is a tough call. I think that as a husband and a dad, if someone breaks into my house, I have to assume that the aggressors are armed and dangerous, and in order to save the lives of those whom God has entrusted to my care, I'm gonna lock and load! The ones committing these sort of crimes are mindless concerning the victims, and while I'm not against sharing the Gospel, my first order of business is the lives of my family, then the souls of the criminals. Once the situation is in hand and the violators subdued, then I will show kindness and mercy as God gives me the grace to do so. But knowing me, I may show mercy by shooting out the knees instead of aiming between the eyes.

Is war a bad idea??? Well yeah, which is why you don't just jump into it.
Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' covers the subject quite well, and lists so many reasons why a leader had better know what he is doing before committing. However, despite our beloved songwriter's apparent hatred of war for any reason, there are some things worth sacrificing lives in the course of battle for, in order to achieve peace. To wage war to thwart tyranny or to stop cruelty to the masses, such as in Sudan, is just cause in my book. My take on Iraq is that we should have taken him out in 1991.I think it's all nice that we're helping the Iraqi people, but it hasn't been worth it...we should have spent the billions on fixing our roads or helping the gov't in Louisiana understand the ramifications of being in a hurricane zone. Should we pull out, heck yeah...I couldn't care less about Iraq or afghanistan. Save the money and come home. Admit failure, not defeat, to control the situation. Let God sort this one out.


Thanks for your honesty Mo jojo. I have to agree that put in a home invasion situation I would FEEL like doing the same thing. But is that the correct Christian response? My wife and I don't have children so this is alot easier for me to say. Is it correct to possibly send a man to Hell to save the physical life of your child? A child that has had the (assumed) benefit of living in a Christian houshold and has come to a saving knowledge of Christ. There it is, another one of those questions I think about. Anyone see the movie End of a Spear? Powerful stuff.

Now I didn't wanna get into Iraq, but since you brought it up Mo jojo...

I'm not exactly sure what the masses in America are missing when it comes to our struggle over in the Middle east. We have taken the fight over there to lessen the likely hood of the fight comming over here. I guess first you have to understand that we are at war with Facist Islam. If this is something you don't want to do, then stop reading. Saddam was not a "religious" leader but rather a dictator that used Islam to further his own designs on wealth and power. Make no mistake, there were terrorist training cames in Iraq: Saddam used WMD's on Iraqi's when he gassed and killed over 10,000 Kurds in the 80's: Brutal rape rooms, torture and killing of anyone who said anything against him, even his brother-in-law. Saddam was quoted that if he got ahold of a nuke, he'd float it into Isreals main port. Now add all that to the fact that he kept poo-pooing the UN resolutions and the climate of terror in the world...you get Bush taking it to our enemies. Watch out for August 22...things in Iran might start really getting scary. So Mo jojo, calling it a failure is not the correct "American" thing to do if we want to fight terrorists. However, I come back to my first question. Should Christians make war ever? My wife and I were talking about it and she brought up how God told Israel to go and kill "group A" or "group B" and so on. And if God doen't ever change then we can assume he could do it again. I'm not ready to say God told us to go to war. For that matter, I think that the death of Christ changed things in that regard. "Back in the day" Smile it was only the Jews and Israel for God to really be concerned with. But after Christs work on the cross all have the opportunity to come to Him. It's hard to give a dude the gosple after you put a bullet in his head.

I could go on and on and most likely will in the future but what I'm trying to get accross is my struggle with wanting to fight what I see as evil in our time ie. Fasicst Islam. And what I FEEL God would have us do. What do I feel God would have us do? Lay down our lives in his service, spreading the Gosple. Onfurtunatly, I'm a big wuss.

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
And it surely doesn't mean that we like everything the present president does.

But "That's where Jesus is" makes a statement about God's opinion, and I consider that difficult. I doubt it's wise to use Jesus as the horse to draw your political message carriage.

Alex


Anyone who has nothing negative to say about a president, just doesn't have all the facts. However, Pres. GWB gets more bad press than fair press coverage. While I don't back him on everything, he's done more good than he gets credit for in the popular media.

I've made my peace with TWJI. If it raises my awareness of my own complacency and gets me out of my yard and into service, then it's done its job. I think the author's political views bleed through, perhaps intentionally, but maybe not. I'm not gonna grill him for it, or make judgments on motives. Only God knows the hearts of men, and will judge in righteousness. I hear the song saying, "Jon, get out there and do your job! The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few! Feed my people, comfort the broken hearted, get your hands dirty and don't shun those who are outside your social bracket (higher OR lower). "

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quote:
Originally posted by mo_jojo

The only way I know Terry is from the Lost Dogs, and i know THEM because of the Choir and Derri Daugherty. I don't think I would have been a fan of Terry's music otherwise, especially in light of his political views and some of the songs you point out. I find it difficult to understand how some people think war is wrong on all grounds.


Don't read too much into those songs or assume too much about Terry's political views. I won't pretend to know where he stands on every issue, but judging from the few political discussions we've had with him and comments from fans like this, I think most of you would be surprised to hear his views on some subjects.

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quote:
Originally posted by mo_jojo

It sounds like some think that you are EITHER a political activist OR a practicing Christian.


What our point has been is that it is all about balance and focus. In Jesus' case, he spent zero time being a political activist. Not once did he picket anyone, lobby anyone, campaign for anyone, hand out political fliers, etc, etc. But, nowhere in the song does it say we can't do any of the things that are listed. I'm sure theres nothing wrong with being good looking or getting a college degree for example.. or winning an award. It's just that those things are not what makes us valuable. THose things are not God's focus or concern.


Unfortunately, we're stuck in this world for our entire lives. We have to pay attention and be involved somewhat. But, our allegiance to this world's politics shouldn't be our main focus and it shouldn't be tied somehow or mixed somehow into our spiritual views (meaning, we shouldn't see supporting certain candidates as being an automatic response from anyone that is "really a Christian.") Our hope shouldn't be on stuff that is passing.. world governments, politicians and political power, etc.

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quote:
Originally posted by mo_jojo

What is a party-crashing dog???

ANyway, as far as Jesus and politics...consider Germany in the late 20's and early 30's. Would it have been better for the Christians there to take up political activism to hinder the rise of secular nationalism that led to the takeover by the Nazi party? or do you suppose just prayer and fasting would have helped, or a bit of both acitvism within the local community AND plenty of time in prayer and fasting by the body of believers? Or was this a situation that Jesus was neither for or against?

It sounds like some think that you are EITHER a political activist OR a practicing Christian.


Party crashing dog, I take it to mean a political bulldog. Christ is not about politics. Never was. If you follow His ways and try to make your life as His, be a Christian (Christ-like) then how can you be a political activist? One is giving up the ways of world and one is the art of it.

Consider Jesus and the disciples when they were on earth. They lived under the Roman Empire, with Julius Caesar as the ruler. A man who was considered to be and claimed to be a god. Slavery, homosexuality, torture, racism, crucifiction, war, conquesting, genocide, persecution of the religious were common place. Was Christs focus on the government? Did he resist the evil in the world or destroy it by not resisting? Did he encourage his followers to fight for the kingdoms of the world or against them? If you spend your time focused on those things, then who are you serving? Christ was with people. He had no interest in a Kingdom of the world. People would often try and trap Him into making a political statement, Pilate tried, others tried when they asked about taxes. Give unto ceasar what is ceasar's, give to God what is God's.

My personal opinion is that Christians fall into the cross level fallacy. They try to apply responsability of the individual to the state. The state is in the business of Law and order. A judge doesn't turn the other cheek, but a victim can. Romans 13 said rulers bear not the sword in vain, but Christ told Peter to put away his. According to Romans we are under the Law until we die, when we die with Christ on the cross we are then under Grace and a new creation. We turn and go the other way or repent. The state is still going to be about the business of Law and Order because this is a fallen world. If you live a life as a new creation and do the will of the Father, you now have a new focus. You turn from the old ways and start loving people, keeping his commandments, resisting not evil. You'd be doing the work of Christ on earth in his absence. His work is not political, its with the homeless, its with those in hospitals, with those in prisons. We shine the light in the darkness by being more like him. Thats what will make others thirst for the savior.
08-14-2006 09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J
My personal opinion is that Christians fall into the cross level fallacy. They try to apply responsability of the individual to the state. The state is in the business of Law and order. A judge doesn't turn the other cheek, but a victim can. Romans 13 said rulers bear not the sword in vain, but Christ told Peter to put away his. According to Romans we are under the Law until we die, when we die with Christ on the cross we are then under Grace and a new creation. We turn and go the other way or repent. The state is still going to be about the business of Law and Order because this is a fallen world. If you live a life as a new creation and do the will of the Father, you now have a new focus. You turn from the old ways and start loving people, keeping his commandments, resisting not evil. You'd be doing the work of Christ on earth in his absence. His work is not political, its with the homeless, its with those in hospitals, with those in prisons. We shine the light in the darkness by being more like him. Thats what will make others thirst for the savior.


I'm not sure this is an either-or proposition (and maybe you're not suggesting that, but it's what I'm taking away from this).

Let me explain. I agree with pretty much everything above. I believe Christians rely too much on the political system to effect change, and not nearly enough on the impact of personally changed lives, the work and love that could come from them.

That being said, because we live in a free state, we enjoy the right to participate in the democratic process, and indirectly, the establishment of various public policies. Our opportunity to cast a vote, to intelligently discuss issues and policies from a Christian worldview, is but one facet of our ability to be (hopefully) a positive influence on those around us.

(The complication comes about because issues are rarely black and white, and what the "right" side or approach would be can often be debated at length.)

As Christians, are we to ignore this dimension of American life, or do we participate in it? If the latter, it seems that if we are to do that as best we can, debate and dialog about issues are a given (hopefully with grace, humility and wisdom). Does God care about that?

Granted, the strongest impact we can have is with our personal service to others. And it takes a lot more effort than voting! But I'm not sure that means God doesn't think some of that isn't important in some cases... I occasionally wonder if there would have been a difference had Christians spoken out on a variety of topics in 1930's Germany, for example...

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quote:
Originally posted by pmac
.. I occasionally wonder if there would have been a difference had Christians spoken out on a variety of topics in 1930's Germany, for example...


quote:
Originally posted by mojojoc
ANyway, as far as Jesus and politics...consider Germany in the late 20's and early 30's. Would it have been better for the Christians there to take up political activism to hinder the rise of secular nationalism that led to the takeover by the Nazi party?


Its the same question. And I have the same answer. I believe the state or rulers have a responsability that is different than the individual. The Old Testament is a clear example of God leading a state and working through leaders. This is all part of the Law. The Law is needed only because man is fallen and sinful. Its purpose is to bring order. It has no lasting value, just a temporal value. Scripture tells us in Romans 13 that all power comes from God, there is no power except that which comes from him.

The Law came before Christ to prepare his way. There were those in Jesus day such as the Pharisee that were still focused on the Law. Judging others sins, condemning, focused on the 'thou shalt nots' so much that they totally didn't even recognise God when he stood before them. Its a matter of focusing on the Law. Making the administration of the world our cause, the world is fallen and evil and we will judge and condemn. We will condemn the sinner, or what we percieve is the sinner. Throw our political stones at the gays, or the govenrnment, political leaders, or whatever we deem as evil.

The original lie was that we would be like God, and we still are trying to be like God. Trying to control, judge, condemn, declare right from wrong. God became a man in Christ to show us the right way to be a man. He is our example. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like. Its to realize man is not in control, God is. No matter what our situation, He is our deliverer. He is the judge, its His place to declare right from wrong and condemn who he sees fit. To submit to the will of the Father means just that. We give up leading the life the way we want, fighting for what we want. We submit to God, and do His will, which is exemplified by Christ. Being with the homeless, the lame, the sick, the lowly. Loving our enemies, turning the other cheek, avoiding vain wranglings about the Law.

God became a homeless jewish son of a furnature maker, in a state and under a leader that hitler probably idolized and learned from. He lived a life as the perfect man, was persecuted and killed and didn't fight back. He lived for love. If His Kingdom is not here, and he is our King neither is ours.

"Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither." ~ C.S. Lewis
08-14-2006 12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by mo_jojo
ANyway, as far as Jesus and politics...consider Germany in the late 20's and early 30's. Would it have been better for the Christians there to take up political activism to hinder the rise of secular nationalism that led to the takeover by the Nazi party? or do you suppose just prayer and fasting would have helped, or a bit of both acitvism within the local community AND plenty of time in prayer and fasting by the body of believers? Or was this a situation that Jesus was neither for or against?

It's been done. Christians did it. Well, at least some... others joined in the raging crowd.

Anyway, it didn't turn the tide. And one of the most influencial people to set Hitler on the chancellor's seat was Franz von Papen, former chancellor and member of a christian political party (Zentrumspartei). He was promised a minister's job. He probably thought it would be possible to keep the madman under control.

Seems we get a little off topic. Sorry.

Alex

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I think its the topic of the song "Thats Where Jesus Is".

I think Jesus would of done the same things he did under ceasar and the Roman Empire had he lived in the 30s under hitler. Praying to God, fasting at times, teaching God's word and helping people in the street. If he were brought before hitler he would of told him the same things he told pilate, 'My Kingdom is not of this world.' He would of told his followers to do as he did, to resist not evil, turn the other cheek and feed his sheep.

Psalm 75:7
But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

Daniel 2:21
He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them.
He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.

Romans 13:1-2
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

In Isaiah 10:5-18 God judges the Assyrian's who He sent against a Godless nation because the Assyrians believed it to be by their strength and wisdom that they were able to bring down another nation. Man thinks man is in control, that is where he is most wrong.
08-14-2006 13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Audiori J

Its the same question. And I have the same answer. I believe the state or rulers have a responsability that is different than the individual. The Old Testament is a clear example of God leading a state and working through leaders. This is all part of the Law. The Law is needed only because man is fallen and sinful. Its purpose is to bring order. It has no lasting value, just a temporal value. Scripture tells us in Romans 13 that all power comes from God, there is no power except that which comes from him.

The Law came before Christ to prepare his way. There were those in Jesus day such as the Pharisee that were still focused on the Law. Judging others sins, condemning, focused on the 'thou shalt nots' so much that they totally didn't even recognise God when he stood before them. Its a matter of focusing on the Law. Making the administration of the world our cause, the world is fallen and evil and we will judge and condemn. We will condemn the sinner, or what we percieve is the sinner. Throw our political stones at the gays, or the govenrnment, political leaders, or whatever we deem as evil.



When Romans 13 is quoted, it needs to be looked at in context of all of Scripture - are we to be obedient to the State when the State commands us to do something in direct violation of a commandment, for example?

And I appreciate the hot-button issues you raise above (e.g., approach to gays), because Christians get hung up on those issues to our detriment. But that's not where I'm coming from, and I'm not talking about Christians encouraging the State dictate and judge personal behavior.

Were Christians who spoke out against slavery in America sinning because slavery was a legal state institution? If so, was holding the same opinion a sin when the government made it illlegal - after all, God instituted both the slave-legal and slave-illegal States? And in a democratic society (which, presumably, God has also instituted) - are the people all considered part of the God-sanctioned State and obligated to participate in the law-making process?

I'm asking all these questions rhetorically, because quite frankly, I don't think there are crystal-clear answers for all situations. Ultimately, I agree with you (again) that our personal examples of Christlikeness are to be priority, that politics are more often than not NOT the solution.

Just out of curiousity, do you vote? And if so, why?

Wink

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