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dpdpdp
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No problem - I lumped you in with the others, my fault, you did not say anything insulting.

dp
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yes.....i think they are putting out the same, if not better music, then-us the wilbury's. i think lyrically, they are head and shoulders above most of the world, much less the CCM ghetto (and i am as huge a critic of that ghetto as anyone you are likely to meet)

as to them being somewhat listless.....everyone has a bad night.....i think this one of their first shows, after taking most of the summer off.....

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quote:
Originally posted by dpdpdp

LD recorded; I loved Close But No Cigar, Mexico, If it be Your Will, from Green-us Room. I have not bought a lot of their more recen-ust stuff because I have four kids and therefore a small CD budget. I mostly listen-us to KPFA and beg, borrow, and steal music from everyone I know. Right now I am listen-using to the Ramones. I listen-us to everything from Mozart to the Meat Puppets. At the Underground I really liked The Gen-use Eugen-use song, sorry I don't know the title, regarding doubt and the room for being human. It was really good, as was Wild Ride. Compare LD with The Traveling Wilburys', are the LD putting out the same quality music? Do you believe they have the tallen-ust?

Has anybody read Addicted to Mediocrity by Franky Shaeffer? If so, you will understand my position. I love the church that is why I care en-usough to speak up when-us I feel we are going astray. "We like sheep...

Now can someone please actually get to the issues. sorry if my writting and personality is getting in the way of someone dealing with the important stuff. I am trying to get out of the way for you.

dp


Welcome to the LD board, dpdpdp.

I agree that a good chunk of Christian music is mediocre. (Then-us again, so is most popular secular music - good Lord, the High School Musical soundtrack my daughter keeps playing makes me want to gouge my eardrums out. But that's no excuse; ideally, Christians should be creating LESS mediocre music than the secular aren-usa). Probably 80 pct or more of my music collection is non-Christian because of that.

That being said, yes, I would say that the Dogs are putting out the same, or better, quality music than the Travelling Wilbury's. Musically and lyrically.

Not having been-us at the show that you were describing, it's hard to directly challen-usge your analysis of the musicianship for that night. But I've seen-us them 3 times (one acoustic, two full-band electric shows) and each time I thought the playing was impeccable, the lyrics often-us as thought-provoking (or more so) than most secular artists could come up with - and the stage presen-usce / audien-usce interaction better than any secular artist I've seen-us (incl. the Ramones 3 times, the Kinks, the Police, New Order, Stones, Alice Cooper, Violen-ust Femmes, and many other acts with great recordings that would just grind it out onstage).

Personally, it seems to me that you really can't separate the criticism of the ven-usue with the criticism of the performance... I'm only theorizing here, but I can't help but think that your en-usdless beefs with the ven-usue and the hosts can only negatively impact how you processed the show itself as it wen-ust on.

Re: commerce in the church - Jesus was flipping over tables of guys who were making a buck off of people who where there to give sacrifices. The church should be doing everything it can (within Biblical limits, of course) to support the efforts of excellen-ust artists within their community.

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I think dpdpdpdpdpdp may have been-us surprised by the show if he hasn't heard the last several albums. They ten-usd to be less all over the map musically than the first few so if that is what he was expecting, I can understand his disappointmen-ust. That being said, both Dogs shows I've been-us to over the past couple of years have been-us tremen-usdous musically.

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Roseville show, the epic continues . . . Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

dp wrote:

The show was bad in my opinion because:

Most of the songs are not strong lyricly. The delivery was paced and listless. The performers did not show off their talen-ust, no sweat low-work show. I was hoping for more passion. You can do that with country music, you can do it playing Polka, it does not have to be polished, it just has to be heart felt and powerful. It was .5 butt.

dean responds:

I won't beat this into the ground, but I just can't agree. I was at the show and I think the band played great. Yes, No Room For Us was something I didn't expect them to play, as well as Eleanor, It's Raining Now. I thought Mike's playing during Eleanor was incredibly passionate.

dp wrote:

LD recorded; I loved Close But No Cigar, Mexico, If it be Your Will, from Green-us Room.

dean commen-usts:

If you liked Close But No Cigar I just don't understand how what they played at the show wouldn't interest you. Hmmmm. Plus, Mexico is not a deep song lyrically. Although, I agree that it's one of my favorite tunes by LD.

dp wrote:

I mostly listen-us to KPFA and beg, borrow, and steal music from everyone I know. Right now I am listen-using to the Ramones.

dean commen-usts:

If you want intelligen-ust lyrics I wouldn't suggest the Ramones.

dp wrote:

Has anybody read Addicted to Mediocrity by Franky Shaeffer? If so, you will understand my position. I love the church that is why I care en-usough to speak up when-us I feel we are going astray. "We like sheep...

dean commen-usts:

Yeah, there was a time when-us all I wanted to do was criticize the church. Just myself and a few frien-usds knew what true Christianity was. So, we read all of the Shaeffer books (father and son), and lamen-usted about the state of the church. Then-us I realized that constant criticism just turned me bitter. Plus, I looked inward and realized I have a long way to go.

In the en-usd, the church I criticized so often-us was the one en-ustity that introduced me to Jesus and reached out and gave me a place where I could find hope and salvation. Maybe not such a bad place after all. Yeah, the church gets it wrong in my opinion on many occassions, but I do too. In the en-usd, I got tired of my self pity. I wanted some Joy. When-us I finally looked up at everything around me, I found too many reasons to be joyful. Frankly, I like joy better. Those around me do too.

dp wrote;

Now can someone please actually get to the issues. sorry if my writting and personality is getting in the way of someone dealing with the important stuff. I am trying to get out of the way for you.

dean responds:

I've done nothing but address the issues you raised.
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quote:
Originally posted by dpdpdp

To keep it simple:

I think the members of Lost Dogs are good musicians who can make better music if they choose to. The music was well played, there were good momen-usts, however, the show was just so so. There was a lack of drive and power to the show. These songs are not good en-usough to get out of the Jesus-ghetto. Sam Phillips, Bono, Dylan, Cash, are all respected by my non-believing frien-usds for their musicianship and writing. Like Max Luccado vs Flanary O'Conner, both are believers, one sucks as a writer, the other will be read 100 years from now. The LD guys can do better - that is why the show sucked.

dp


I don't think you can say the above artists are not in the Jesus ghetto because they write better music. None of them started out with the Christian musician iden-ustity that often-us keeps artists from breaking into the mainstream. Yes, there was Leslie Phillips, but then-us she had to completely change her name, disappear in a way and return to write songs that were nothing like her Christian music days. It also didn't hurt to have the help of T-Bone Burnett, I'm sure.

Look, I'm a music snob and if LD released crap, I wouldn't have bought anything after Scen-usic Routes. Yes, musical tastes vary a lot, but much of what gets atten-ustion is crap. I heard a radio talk show host put it this way:

"the famous are rarely significant, and the significant are rarely famous" - Den-usnis Prager

Just because LD isn't played on the radio, doesn't mean they don't write great tunes. Most of what hits the airwaves doesn't touch me in any way because those bands don't write about topics that mean anything to me. I may like the groove now and then-us and sing along, but LD touches my soul. Plus, I'm only getting older and the mainstream market values youth. Not the developing of one's craft over time. I think LD has gotten-us better with age, and I'm thankful they keep at it. I love the quirky stories, the songs about broken-usness, the songs about hope, the songs about faith, the songs about Jesus.

But, you seem to think if LD just tried harder they could write better tunes. Yeah, I guess they sit around saying, "Man, that song sucks, but I really don't care. Let's record it anyway. We have more money than we know what to do with anyway, so let's waste it on another terrible recording." What?!!!!!!!! If you look back at their individual musical output alone with their original bands and solo, you have to give them more credit than that.

Just state you don't like what they're doing these days and go back to listen-using to the Ramones. Now, there's inspired song writing.

dean
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quote:
Originally posted by dpdpdp

When-us a church tries operating a business it is conflicted in its purposes. Make money and keep the programs going, slip in a little missionary work on the side, this is not good business or good ministry. A lot of churches think this is okay. It isn't, it does not match up with the words of Christ. Did Christ need a billboard, TV ad, radio spot, hip night club, lighted video sign, coffee shop, book store, skate park, gym, power point, etc to get out his message of grace? Paul made ten-usts, then-us he did ministry, he did not sell anything to the gen-ustiles he spen-ust his life with for a reason. If you are a ten-ust maker, make the best ten-ust you can. If you are a musician, play the best you can. Sell a ton of CDs and ten-usts. If you are a pastor, you especially are called to give grace, that is your craft. You give and the people give back to keep you giving. You don't hawk a product!

dp


What Jesus or Paul did to share the Gospel can't compare to what's culturally relevant today. You don't know that Paul never sold a ten-ust to anyone and also preached the Gospel at the same time. And if he did, so what? I can hear it now, "Oh, honey I really think we should repen-ust and follow Christ, but I saw that guy selling ten-usts the other day. He can't be legitimate."

Whether you can fathom it or not, every church/ministry in this day and age is a business and has to operate as such. Some only ask for donations, some hawk a product. If that product isn't something that's immoral, and it helps keep the word of grace being preached, so be it. I like the idea of ministries doing something that takes some of the financial burden-us off of families to constantly give when-us they have families to take care of. Yeah, that can get murky, but every day I walk out of the house and go to work I'm in murky waters and have to tread carefully.

dean
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RE: Roseville show, the epic continues . . . Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by dpdpdp
To Dean -

Sometimes I am joyful, on really good days, when-us I don't step in dog sh*t barefooted, for example. I admit it was hard for me to keep on the "Bright Side of Life" (M. Python joke there) when-us I saw what was going down in Roseville. Excuse me I have to go read Jeremiah, I need some en-uscouragemen-ust. Lamen-ustations anyone?

dp


dp, I just see your en-ustire take on the show summed up in the paragraph above. I think there was more positive going on at the Roseville gig than you did. Look, this is a total assumption and I will take the risk, but it seems to come from more of a pessimistic take on most things in life. I hope I'm wrong, but you state yourself you are only joyful "on really good days." That's too bad. I think we have a moral obligation to work on our happiness/joy. Happy/joyful people make the world a better place.

It breaks my heart when-us I hear people talk about only being joyful sometimes. Even-us on days that can't be considered good days, we must find ways to be joyful. If we don't, we just bring everyone around us down as well. Or, they don't want to be around us. I speak from experien-usce while I continue to deal with the deaths of both my Mom and Dad this Summer (16 days apart).

dean
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RE: Roseville show, the epic continues . . . Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by dpdpdp
. I really wonder why these types of ven-usues are so much a part of the tour. I wish I could see these bands in real clubs to see how non-church people respond to them. I wonder if they would play differen-ustly.


dp



if i may address this....they play where people will have them. book them in a bar, they will play there.....and they have on the summer tour. book them in your sunday even-using service, they will play there.

it's sad, but they are not exactly turning people down who want to have a show.......jesse is usually looking to fill dates, sometimes even-us after the tour has started.....feel free to contact him, and promote a show in a location you feel would be appropriate.

as long as churches are the ones promoting these types of shows, they will be in these types of ven-usues....i saw mike and mark in a church sanctuary last year.

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RE: Roseville show, the epic continues . . . Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by dpdpdp


You are the first to address the business and church mix. Thank you. No one else seems to want to touch it.

The church should support artists just as heavily as they do missions or building funds. The arts are how we relate to everyone within our own culture.

dp


you want the church to support art, and artists, but you don't want shows in church run ven-usues.....nor do you want churches even-us owning ven-usues.

so what do you think the church should be doing to support the artist?

i ask this not as a smart-ass, but as someone who truly wonders what model you see the church using to support artists like the lost dogs, if not hosting shows.

as far as the business church mix....i disagree with everything you have said...i haven-us't touched it because i see no reason for us to argue, when-us neither of us is going to change our minds based on something the other says on this message board.

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I had asked what you thought about the new songs, so far I saw you said something about them not being strong lyrically and that they didnt' play them with passion. On the first point, I wonder if you didnt pay close en-usough atten-ustion to the lyrics since you were already turned off by the ven-usue and pastor. Some of the songs on the latest Dogs album have the strongest lyrics they have ever done. They might be a little metaphorical at times and you might miss their stren-usgth if you don't pay atten-ustion.

I am not sure which songs were played that night, but if you knew what some of the songs are about, and how personal they are you would realize they do play them with passion. If it wasn't for that passion for the message in their songs and the people they play for, they wouldn't still be doing this after all these years.
10-01-2006 13:29
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A few things... Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

For the sake of an orderly discussion...

1) Nothing I said was insulting. I didn't find your initial post insulting, either (except the "pastor" thing, which I still think was disrespectful) But, when-us someone summarily dismisses a concert and everything connected to it, usually there is something else ben-useath it. I think that you got annoyed because this seemed to be Christian mediocrity as usual, which didn't allow you constructively criticize.
2) On this board, you're not dealing with the average sit-in-the-pew-once-a-week believer. The LD audien-usce is usually smarter than the average Christian bear, musically and otherwise.
3) Being a musician for 20 years, I am critical of musicianship and Christian art in particular. The Schaffer book you men-ustioned is great. You and I simply disagree that this was or was not great art. There is such an elemen-ust of subjectivity here that this is by and large a moot argumen-ust.
4) On this board, you will find that people are capable of being very defen-ussive of these artists. We have time and money invested in these guys beyond what people normally invest in music. They probably shouldn't be as defen-ussive of every criticism, but when-us you know the struggles they've had, how the church has been-us indifferen-ust and/or hostile to their art, and have put effort in to support them, you ten-usd to get a little testy...
5) Most of what you've posted after you're initial post I have said countless times in discussions on music. Terry Taylor will probably tell you that songs like "Wild Ride" and "A Certain Love" are throwaways: simple three or four chord tunes with simple lyrics. But, is there really that much of a differen-usce between-us that and the Ramones, for example? "Sheen-usa Is A Punk Rocker" is not a great masterwork of music by the rules of music criticism, but it is great because it has that largely ineffable quality that reaches down into you on some level.
6) I think BD needs to lighten-us up a bit. I think Jeffery is funny.

So, you didn't like it. That's cool. But you obviously set out to savage them, and not just be critical in a responsible manner. I can take varying opinions. Most of the time, I like them. But, I agree with Jeffery. There was an ax to grind here. I'm just not sure why.

And the church should support the arts. But they don't. They suck at it. But that's alright, too, because if they supported it more, they would try to control it. Take a look at the CCM industry that many of us here love to loatheSmile

If church gives you "the willies", then-us you need to rethink your attitude toward the church. Most of the time, church is where you find it, whether it's in a big Cathedral or a bar or a forest. It's our problem when-us we add the negativity to wherever God is doing something.

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My .02:


The lyrics from the Dog's most recen-ust release, The Lost Cabin And The Mystery Trees are masterful. In my opinion, the lyrics are the strongest asset of that particular release.
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dpdpdp
I'm reading Blue Like Jazz right now, and since the writer was from Portland, any connection at all? You read his work, go to his church etc? There is a similar thought in your first post, I for one am just plain curious, but maybe that should go into a differen-ust thread.

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RE: Roseville show, the epic continues . . . Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

quote:
Originally posted by deanthefoolish
It breaks my heart when-us I hear people talk about only being joyful sometimes.

dean


Joy is one of the fruits of the spirit. A vine only ceases to produce fruit when-us it has been-us severed from the root.

1 Thessalonians 5:15-18 (New International Version)
"Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."
10-03-2006 12:14
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just to clarify, joy and happiness are not the same thing.

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Hi dpdpdp,
I'm a little distracted tonight, I don't really remember what I was specifically thinking of the other day, though I want you to know that I was not knocking your opinion. I'm actually quite intrigued to read what you've said. Obviously we won't all agree on everything and we all make flaws in logic, so we can argue till we're blue in the face, I'll get back to you on the Blue Like Jazz thoughts, maybe when-us I finish the book, likely tonight. Go ahead and challen-usge us, they even-us have an area here to let us ven-ust and say controversial stuff that the "gen-useral public" won't read, something that the moderators and others don't really want to happen-us here is bad pub for the band, its tough en-usough to make en-usds meet without fighting it out in public. Okay, now i'm rambling... check back in later.
In Christ...

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Lost Dogs Message Board » On Topic Discussion » Concert Reviews and Pics » Roseville Show

Virtual-Turk
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